66 reviews

Ontraport

Sales, marketing, and communication management software

4,2 /5 (66 reviews) Write a Review!

Overall rating

4,2 /5
  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Features
77%
recommended this app
66 reviews
Matt J.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Marketing & Advertising
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 2+ years
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Daily user since 2014

Reviewed on 2020/01/15

Like most businesses, we use Ontraport for general email marketing but we also use it track leads and automate follow up of hot leads - this has vastly improved our sales focus, conversion rates, and sales value

Pros

1. Ease of use, a great tool for all my marketing and automation. You have to try it to really understand
2. Support, many of whom I now know on first name basis - Ontraport attracts top notch people to be part of their team and they bend over backwards to help, especially if mistakes are made... I find them extremely proactive.
3 Come for the software, stay for the people. Not only are the staff extremely good at what they do but so are the leaders. Every dept head I've spoken with has been extraordinary and a credit to [SENSITIVE CONTENT HIDDEN] who himself is all over the wider community. All of this plus the Facebook Community which is amazing, no question too dumb or too complex, everyone within the wider community is very helpful.

Cons

The knowledge base could probably do with more detail but I can normally get the answer I need from the community with is very strong and healthy

Response from Ontraport

Thanks for the kind words, Matt! We're happy to have you as a part of the Ontraport family.

We're constantly making updates and additions to our Support Center, so please let us know if you have any specific feedback or suggestions for information to add!

Steven L.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Marketing & Advertising
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 1+ year
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 7.0 /10

Great CRM/Marketing Automation Software, but with a few issues

Reviewed on 2020/01/07

I've used Ontraport for more than an year and I really like it (despite my concerns). It's the first window I see in the morning. Aside from basic contact management, the marketing automation component is first rate. Good task management too.

Pros

Nice user interface and overall capabilities. Good task management abilities along with contact management services. The support is simply best in class and the Facebook support group is stellar.

Cons

It's slow compared to other similar systems I've used. You also have to "click your mouse button" way more times than similar services to actually do things inside the system. For example, it may take 6 or 7 mouse clicks to create a basic task whereas past services I've used required only 2 or 3. This is extremely frustrating in terms of productivity. Overall the pros outweigh the cons - but I sure wish they'd address the cons.

Response from Ontraport

Thanks for your review, Steven! We're continually working on the interface to simplify the workflow without sacrificing functionality.

Here's one improvement we just recently released:
We know Tasks were just one example but we've recently added "Quick Tasks" that can be created with three clicks in regular Contacts view: simply select the contact, click on Tasks, and click the Quick Task tab to create the task. Then, in our Contact Quick View interface, adding a Quick Task is just one click.

We're working on lots of other projects to simplify processes and speed up the application interface keep the feedback coming!

Verified Reviewer
Overall rating
  • Company size: 11-50 Employees
  • Used Weekly for 2+ years
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 0.0 /10

Good in theory, buggy overall

Reviewed on 2018/04/12

Not having to juggle between a bunch of other software.

Pros

Ontraport does a lot of things. For the small businesses that are just starting and not sure what they want, Ontraport is great.

Cons

Ontraport made me terrified of all-in-one solution packages. It does a lot of things... but nothing well. Every solution that it solves also has a huge "Yes, BUT..." Rising prices, followed by my inability to do what I need for it to do perfectly, has made me leave Ontraport.

Like, being able to control permissions for wordpress pages is neat. But incredibly tedious to disable access when there's a lot of content. Subscriptions would be hard to manage if the customer had multiple products. Email campaigns were difficult to execute. Just a long laundry list of problems.

If you're a small business that DOES know what you want, and the software to handle it -- I recommend that solution instead.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Thank you for your honest review. We would love to hear more about what your needs are so that we can submit them as feature releases. While we continue to bring core functionalities businesses need under one roof, we appreciate getting feedback from our users so we can continue to grow alongside the market. Please submit to our support team at [email protected]

Abel U.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Marketing & Advertising
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Weekly for 6-12 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 9.0 /10

Ontraport Helps In My Business Growth

Reviewed on 2020/11/11

Ontraport is a "DO IT YOURSELF" platform that delivers essential and effective business features, like marketing automation, a powerful CRM system, outstanding email delivery, etc. It is my best email marketing campaign platform.

Pros

Ontraport Sales and its automation documents to clients are amazing. They have an effective customer support system and are always there to render any possible assistance whenever I experience any issue.

Cons

They don't have flexible mobile App features, to have the best experience with Ontraport, I recommend using their desktop version. It will be super cool if you could improve your email tracking for each individual user.

Response from Ontraport

Hello Abel. We appreciate your feedback as we always look to our customer reviews to see how we can best improve our platform. Mobile app is still in the works so stay tuned and thanks for the positive review. :)

Jan L.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Information Technology & Services
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 2+ years
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Ontraport does it all

Reviewed on 2020/09/10

Pros

I have been using Ontraport since early 2016 and it's been a reliable backbone for my business. There were some small issues along the way, but they were mostly user errors and they were quickly addressed by the support.

The flexibility that Ontraport offers is incredible. A couple of years ago you would need a team of programmers to achieve what they offer. Incredible tool.

Cons

Hard to think of any. Really happy with the service provided.

Response from Ontraport

Glad our support team has been able to help with the hiccups along the way! Thanks for taking the time to leave this review, Jan. :)

Rebecca B.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Marketing & Advertising
  • Company size: Self Employed
  • Used Daily for 2+ years
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

I love this CRM! Ontraport has changed the way I do business

Reviewed on 2020/09/25

Amazing experience from the day I joined over 4 years ago until today.

Pros

I love this CRM! Ontraport has changed the way I do business and I recommend it to all my clients (and let's face it - to anyone who will listen). The support is wonderful and the platform is powerful. You can set up any funnel you can dream up! Before OP, I was overworked, after getting OP I have so much more time to pour into my clients. You won't regret making the leap! Questions - ask me!

Cons

The only thing is that at the time of this review they don't YET have countdown timers in their emails - but the key word is "YET" because they are always taking new feature requests from their community.

Response from Ontraport

Reviews like this one is what keeps us doing what we do. Glad you've found Ontraport to be successful for your business. Thanks Rebecca!

Mitch B.
Overall rating
  • Used Daily for 2+ years
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Ontraport is so powerful and flexible - almost to the point of overwhelm

Reviewed on 2017/11/08

The biggest benefit is that it allows us to intelligently segment our customers and have a true CRM where we can see what happened when and troubleshoot errors.

Pros

You can just do so much with this software. It's amazing to have the ability to use such a powerful tool where we can design helpful systems for all aspects of our business without ever having to pay or consult a developer. The new updates they have made to the software have been amazing, and I love how there is always a helpful support person just one click away if you ever get stuck.

Cons

Because the software can do so much and is so flexible, it can be a bit overwhelming and at times confusing because you end up doing things in a non-standard way which can lead to a messy account.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi Mitch!

There are so many possibilities within ONTRAPORT. A best practice is to think through each process and what reporting you would like before building. You can always share your build with the ONTRAPORT Facebook User Community to get feedback before launching. Our experts and power users usually do this to see if there are other ways to build more efficiently.

Daniel G.
Overall rating
  • Industry: E-Learning
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 6-12 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Used campaigns, rules, message sequences to structure our business.

Reviewed on 2017/11/22

I was able to automate tasks that would otherwise require someone to send out various emails to thousands of people.

Pros

I like the functionality of campaigns, tags, triggers, and sequences most. It's very helpful and means I can automate what I would otherwise have to pay someone else to do.

Cons

The inability to sanitize campaign data during testing (i.e. I test buy a product and lifetime customer value report will always say I earned $X - I cannot reset it after testing, unless I want to copy and paste the whole campaign to start again, which would require more time to test.

Also, it's a fairly slow/bandwidth intensive software to use.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi Daniel! Thank you for your review. Glad to see you would recommend us to a friend. We use task automation on campus for many of our departments to save us time as well.

We hear you about the testing feature in campaigns. Did you know that our team takes feature requests and we vote them up based on customer wants? To up-vote this request, shoot an email to [email protected] and have them give this function a thumbs up.

Justin R.
Overall rating
  • Company size: 11-50 Employees
  • Used Daily for 6-12 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Transfered my email services to Ontraport this year. Sales & Efficiency has improved!

Reviewed on 2018/01/10

Increased sales per send from previous platform.

Pros

I really like the hands on customer service, we have had multiple "how to" conference calls that were extremely helpful. I also like the easy, clean templates. The Email automation has improved our efficiency.

Cons

None off the top of my head really. I have only been using this for 6-12 months. Would be nice to be able to update or delete sales transactions from a customer profile.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi Justin!

Thank you for the perfect rating. We like you too!

Wendy M.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Management Consulting
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 8.0 /10

A highly scalable system that can do a lot

Reviewed on 2015/04/23

Pros

The customer service support is outstanding. Ontraport is basically a very scalable system - if you know how to use it. Their staff are amazing at helping you with your questions and in teaching you how to use the system.

Cons

At present, the price. In USD it is making it quite unaffordable due to a falling AUD where I live. Also I feel the system needs to be tiered. I don't use it as much to warrant the fee per month but don't want to leave the system either.

Keith J.
Overall rating
  • Used Daily for 6-12 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support

Positive experience. Noticed an increase in email marketing return. Efficiency increased.

Reviewed on 2018/02/08

Pros

Customer automation. Customer support calls are highly beneficial. Potential customer information capture.

Cons

The unsubscribe feature lacks the ability to unsubscribe from just the one email. It relates to the whole campaign

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi Keith!

Thank you for the positive review. I'm glad to hear you've had an increase in marketing return since using our software. There is a way to set up sequences so that leads can unsubscribe from only that sequence. Shoot an email to [email protected] to see if this would fit your needs.

Steven D.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Environmental Services
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Weekly for 1+ year
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 3.0 /10

Complicated + Expensive....Better Options In My Experience

Reviewed on 2019/12/10

Frustrating and expensive would be the best way to sum it up. ActiveCampaign feels like a better option that costs less....if you're going to go with an expensive option with all the features + potential power, might as well go with InfusionSoft

If you're going to use an InfusionSoft or an Ontraport....you better be (or have someone on team) with some technical chops + patience for troubleshooting.

Pros

It is essentially a 'full stack' tool in that you can create your marketing web pages and forms in Ontraport that then connect directly to your CRM, email, marketing automation, etc tools

It has the potential to be powerful and allow what would normally take multiple tools to be housed all in one.

Cons

It was complicated to use. It was honestly easier to manage multiple different tools and tie them together via Zapier or API or other integrations. Had multiple frustrating issues working with the Ontraport tool to the point where we ended up switching away.

Armin M.
Overall rating
  • Used Daily for 1+ year
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support

CRM software our organization has been using for a long time

Reviewed on 2018/04/07

Pros

What I like most about this software is the Class A customer support. Communication is on-going and great if there are issues.

Cons

I wish the dashboard was more intuitive. Very often, the software seems to be lagging dragging out simple tasks and making it difficult for our team to accomplish daily tasks efficiently.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Thanks for being a part of the ONTRAPORT family Armin! I'm glad to hear you've had great experience with our support team - that is something we strive for. We hear you about the dashboard and I've added a vote to our feature release.

Lisa M.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Hospitality
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 5.0 /10

Ontraport - OAP

Reviewed on 2015/04/22

Pros

It is simple to use and you can set up complicated e-mail sequences to fire automatically

Cons

It is very glitchy, it is not supported by people like driftflow, zapier, optin monster to name a few, the sales order process is horrible. Support is via e-mail only which can get really frustrating. It is only built for an american, to get the sales order pages to work for me I have to add html. I cannot use large amounts of the system

David H.
Overall rating
  • Used Other for 1-5 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support

My primary experience with this software was getting people OFF of it.

Reviewed on 2018/05/09

Pros

I like that it exists and serves people and gets the job done. Outside of that, there's little I really love about this software. I can use the functionality, but there are much more intuitive alternatives and much cheaper ones too.

Cons

I know there are many practical uses for a software this big, and that everyone uses one of the big email marketing softwares and that you "should" use them too. I see the benefits, compared to a Mailchimp, and I also think few people get much from a software this complex and are better off sticking with a software they understand.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi David! Business owners usually move to ONTRAPORT after they find a point solution isn't the right fit for their needs. Having all of your lead, client, eCommerce, support and more notes and interactions under one roof make it so that teams have less "fall through the gap" type of experiences.

Businesses who are just getting started and only need the email marketing solution probably aren't the best fit. Appreciate your review!

Verified Reviewer
Overall rating
  • Industry: Marketing & Advertising
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Other for Free Trial
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Likelihood to recommend 2.0 /10

Great CRM software - terrible email builder

Reviewed on 2018/09/07

Pros

Ontraport is a powerful system for managing my business. At first glance, it has everything I need - CRM, email automations, all the good stuff. If you aren't as picky as me, it should meet your needs

Cons

I had a lot of issues with Ontraport - mostly in the realm of marketing automation. The biggest issue - the one that caused me to cancel almost immediatly - was the fact that you can't put bullet lists into emails! How is that possible? People don't read emails - they scan them.

Response from Ontraport

We hear you! We have since released bulleted lists in our email builder. Thank you for your feedback, we are constantly making changes and updates to our software to make it the system that has everything you need.

Chandler E.
Overall rating
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 5.0 /10

Great For Small Businesses

Reviewed on 2018/03/10

Marketing automations

Pros

With no setup fees and a monthly cost that is less than 1/10th of what some of their competitors are charging for the same level of service, Ontraport is designed solely a with small businesses focus.

Cons

Their reporting dashboard isn't visually appealing as it doesn't have graphs and charts. You have to export data to make it pretty.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi Chandler, thanks for your review! Have you taken a look at Performance Mode? Many of the data points and reporting we pull can be seen in the beautiful Campaign Builder from this mode. If not or you'd like to learn how to set this up, shoot an email to [email protected]

Elesha J.
Overall rating
  • Used Weekly for 1-5 months
  • Review Source

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  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support

I use this several times a week

Reviewed on 2018/04/10

Pros

I like that fact that I can make an email in minutes. It's very simple to use even if you're someone who's new to email systems.

Cons

I don't like that fact that lists/groups are hard to set up if you don't do it as you are importing contacts.

Response from ONTRAPORT

Hi Elesha,thanks for the positive review!
A best practice for groups/lists that we use here on the ONTRAPORT campus is to add in a tag for the import (import:june12018). That way you can easily create a group around that import.

Deanna M.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Management Consulting
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Ontraport Makes Marketing and Selling Effective, Automated, & Easy

Reviewed on 2015/04/09

Pros

Ontraport makes marketing and selling in my business effective and easy. With great email deliverability I don't have to worry that my marketing messages aren't getting to my prospects and customers. The payment processing and affiliate systems allow me to accept payments for my services and products and have my partners share them with their communities so I can help more people get the solutions they need. But the best part is how automated everything can be with the sequences, tasks, and if/then rules. No matter what the event: a client signs up, a promotion runs, a prospect wants to talk to me about how I can help them, everything that needs to happen to deliver a quality experience them, happens and it's on autopilot. And on top of all of that the support team isn't knowledgable and fast when I have a question about how I could use the system better to accomplish my goals. I couldn't be happier about my experience with Ontraport and love sharing it as a resource with my clients.

Cons

I don't have one complaint about the Ontraport system or the company. The staff are friendly and really care about the success of their customers. They are careful to roll out updates after thorough testing and creating new features that the community of users wants.

Sarah B.
Overall rating
  • Company size: 11-50 Employees
  • Used Daily for 1-5 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 6.0 /10

Not bad, but in hindsight I would probably pick a different CRM for us

Reviewed on 2017/07/11

Pros

-The campaigns feature is really comprehensive and easy to use, once you understand it. There is a bit of a learning curve.
-The Email template builder is a pretty nice plus - this was something we really wanted in a CRM, although it could use some work.
-HTML editor for emails is available.
-Custom fields, link tracking and automatic tagging can be set up, which is great.

Cons

-Hardly any of their customer service reps seem to understand how the software works. After calling and emailing support multiple times to get help setting up our first campaign, I talked to only one person who was able to give us a comprehensive and complete solution that suited our needs. Other people would constantly refer us to someone else or straight up say they didn't know/didn't offer that kind of support.
-Nothing you do is saved automatically. If you're used to software with autosave (which I was), you're going to be in for a world of hurt if you forget to save regularly.
-The Email templates are too rigid for my liking. I wish you could do more with it. We also have issues sometimes when sending emails where two objects which are both centered will appear in different positions, and there isn't anything that can be done about it, and other little bugs like that.
-There's no mobile preview for email templates. You have to scale the window down to the size of a mobile phone to get the idea.

Hannah W.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Online Media
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 6-12 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Customer Service is AMAZING

Reviewed on 2020/10/02

First of all, their customer service is AMAZING. Every time I have a question, each support person is quick to answer, and is super kind. I had an extensive chat with someone today, and he helped me SOOO much. I have never seen such quick, helpful, and NICE customer service EVER until Ontraport!!!!

Pros

Customer service, their ability to go above and beyond, availability for screen shares

Cons

it is a little confusing at first, but with their awesome customer service team, they help in a jiffy!

Response from Ontraport

Thanks for this positive review, Hannah! We'll be sure to pass this message along to our support team. :)

Melissa P.
Overall rating
  • Industry: E-Learning
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 1-5 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 10.0 /10

Phenomenal software and customer support

Reviewed on 2019/01/11

This company and its software is incredible. I've worked with many softwares in the past and never run into customer service like this.

Pros

We are on our way to taking over the world using this software. It has opened up so many doors for us. Originally, we were looking for a software to create a "drip" email marketing campaign. After talking to ONTRAPORT customer service about all the features, we ended up completely migrating our CRM from another software. We even use it to create customized landing pages for our clients. We've done way more than we ever intended to do with ONTRAPORT. The customer service, training, and knowledge base are out of this world.

Cons

The only thing I find somewhat frustrating is the inability to do certain things. For example, when I'm creating a new email, I have certain limitations for what I can do to the text in an email or the formatting. There's usually a somewhat comparable workaround, and they add new features regularly, but it is a little annoying when you have a vision you can't completely bring to life immediately.

Response from Ontraport

Hi Melissa! Thanks for the raving review. We're so happy that our software and support team have helped you do more than you had imagined. That's what we like to hear.

Maria Q.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Marketing & Advertising
  • Company size: 11-50 Employees
  • Used Daily for 6-12 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 9.0 /10

Complete and Useful Digital Marketing Tool

Reviewed on 2019/08/24

I´m happy with it and the clients that are paying and using the tool are happy too. I can see the entire campaign results in only one software, saving a lot of time and effort.

Pros

It allows me to have all the assets and platform of a funnel in one software, so I can analyze in which part are my leads or my clients; I can easily know which part of my funnel is broken.

On Ontraport you can create entire campaigns, landings, email marketing, SMS reminders, etc. It also works as CRM so your marketing and Sales team can be on the same page.

Cons

It´s not easy to use, we lose quite a time trying to understand it and even when we have this software for more than a year not all the members of my team know how to use it or use it at it´s most.

Dario C.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Professional Training & Coaching
  • Company size: 2-10 Employees
  • Used Daily for 1-5 months
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Value for Money
  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 3.0 /10

Tedious and complicated system with Bugs that cost a lot of Time & Money

Reviewed on 2019/08/21

So far not good, overall the Customer Support is great and they are very helpful and friendly, however on the other hand, when technical issues occur like the one I am going through, where the Automation does not work, it takes ages to figure it out and get it sorted.
I am considering to leave ontraport if it is not fixed soon and they are not making it up to me for wasting my time by giving me at least 1 month for free, for all the inconvenience they caused due to their technical errors and lack of judgement to figure it out in the first place when I first mentioned it over 1 week ago.

Pros

At first it looked simple and the Dashboard with the navigation on the menu is okay to get used to it.

Cons

1. The Automation isn't working, even when following all the steps and get support to double check that everything is in order, I have a landing page setup with the correct optin form and the campaign email messages are in order too, but it does not trigger the campaign when I optin with an email address.
2. The Page building tool is sometimes cluncky and freezes on you, so one has to go back and refresh the page, before you can proceed with setting up and building your Landing or Sale Pages.
3. Confusing structure on how to setup an automation, there are so many small steps in between that one has to consider that if you are not a technical genius you will need a Psychiatrist after having completed a setup, because of the stress you will go through getting there.
4. Expensive for what it does and not practical, very time consuming to get even the first campaign launched, 2 months passed and I have yet to experience the Benefits of using ontraport.

Dani M.
Overall rating
  • Industry: Management Consulting
  • Review Source

Overall rating

  • Ease of Use
  • Customer Support
  • Likelihood to recommend 9.0 /10

A growing tool for growing businesses

Reviewed on 2015/04/22

Pros

I love the support that Ontraport provides to their users. They are quite receptive to feedback and listen when you tell them there is a bug. I also like the automation of course. The membership site integration with PilotPress is great. I like that their support is also better than their competitors. I've spent many weekend days in the midst of an issue with their support. They are so helpful!

Cons

The growing pains. Sometimes bugs pop up ( seems to be in the past but still ) and it's frustrating mid launch to have things like this come into play.